Forums - psx2000, omni, old school street fighters please read (slightly different) Show all 38 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- psx2000, omni, old school street fighters please read (slightly different) (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=46279) Posted by BlackShinobi on 11:12:2001 08:27 PM: psx2000, omni, old school street fighters please read (slightly different) I really hate those "hey (whoever) please help me with something I'm too lazy to figure out for myself" threads but this seemed different enough to get me write something close to that In the thread about punishing Blanka's ball omni explained how moves hit earlier when you block low and I was using that info today and it help me with alot more than just that blanka attack. Anyway the point is that as much as I have been practicing CVS2 lately I don't think i would have realized that on my own. So I thought I would do a thread asking people who know things like this if they could help with the things that are really important in advanced SF but not easily visible. Posted by omni on 11:12:2001 10:15 PM: I'm always more than willing to help, but you gotta give me some starting point, I can't just be like, 'umm...and here is random SF tip #241!!!'. hahaha. If you have a particular question and or are curious about something, go for it. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by BlackShinobi on 11:12:2001 10:43 PM: I don't really know where to start I mean with the blocking thing I would have never asked, because I didn't know that I didn't know it. but I'll see if I can come up with something more specific thanks Posted by Iceman on 11:12:2001 11:35 PM: quote: Originally posted by omni I'm always more than willing to help, but you gotta give me some starting point, I can't just be like, 'umm...and here is random SF tip #241!!!'. hahaha. If you have a particular question and or are curious about something, go for it. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Funny thing is, the majority of us would learn stuff from those Posted by SilverGear on 11:13:2001 01:24 AM: quote: Originally posted by omni but you gotta give me some starting point. Okay..... Let's start from the top.... Start at "Random SF Fact #1" and Stop and "Random SF Fact #2,197" please. Posted by omni on 11:13:2001 01:53 AM: hahahha. I'll tell you what - name a game and a character and I'll try to rattle off some worthwhile information. either that or name a specific matchup and i'll help. either that or name a combo or something you are having problems with. shrug Stuff that I know really well - engine from classic to now but particularly st, a2, a3, msh and xsf. stuff that i suck at - mvc2 and cvs1. I didn't really play either (although I know both really well) so if you have a question, let me know. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by Iceman on 11:13:2001 02:04 AM: ST Balrog if I get 2 characters than ST Bison too. Posted by omni on 11:13:2001 04:44 AM: ST Balrog: Luckily I played him for a really long time and in fact I'm pretty much known for playing him. But what would be really helpful is if you can give me some specific matchups you are having problems with. I'll try to glance across general ones that you will come across such as shotos and guile. shotos: I usually start the round off with either jab low rush or standing fierce. the standing fierce will hit them if they try to fireball and against ken you can often low rush before the fireball comes out. The thing to be aware of is dp will hit both standing fierce and low rush, while the better shotos will just do low strong at this point. The low strong will hit the rush if you it right away, but you can hit them while it's retracting so it's a total mental game at this point. Be aware of Ryu's who like to short hurricane kick over the jab low rush also. you can standing fierce the hurricane kick, so once again it's all a mind game. At this point your main goal is to keep rushing while looking for opportunities to either headbutt through fireballs or get close enough to go for throws. I personally prefer to either do a ton of Turn Around Punches (TAP) mixed up with some standing fierces and kick rushes if they jump or a ton of low jab rushes until they prove to me that they can stop it. Basically you wanna do 2 things - build up meter so you can have super (once you do the whole momentum of the match changes) or get close enough to throw so you can do post throw mixups like walk under low forward, low strong, jab low rush or kick rush (whiffed) then throw again or the other myriad of setups that follow (I personally prefer just low roundhouse against honda's/zangiefs but we aren't talking about them). Against guile, your goal is again the same (most matches involving balrog go in the form of - attack until you get meter, look for opening, super, next round) but you need to keep a few things in mind such as the fact that your low forward will beat his forward and that his backhand can get rather annoying too. What I like to do is stay outside of the backhand range and low strong it but the main time you are going to run into it (pun intended) is after he sonic booms and you headbutt through it. This is just a range issue and you're going to have to figure out when and when you can't headbutt. Also keep in mind that charged taps do a grip of damage, so a sorta okay strategy is to trade with the sonic boom in hopes of doing a lot of damage as well as building up meter. don't forget that you can standing fierce guile as he starts up the sonic boom. There are a lot more nuances, but i'm getting hungry. Playing bison? Just throw! haha. I'm serious, he's a total grappler in ST. there are just certain things not right about his throw in ST - such as blocked scissor kick into throw, that thing is a total 2 hit combo. meaty low short into throw is broken as well. just remember the power of cross up forward, standing short, low forward and jump strong, those moves are your friends. let me know if i didn't answer something and i'll explain it further. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by State of Nature on 11:13:2001 06:30 AM: XSF: who has the best rusdhown? Wolvie, Storm, Rogue, Cammy, or Magneto? What did rushdown look like in this game? Tiers? Posted by Monkeyking on 11:13:2001 08:51 AM: hi omni...how 'bout against someone usin' a level 4 eagle...w/ k-groove??? Posted by sf2rb on 11:13:2001 09:03 AM: quote: Originally posted by omni ST Balrog: Luckily I played him for a really long time and in fact I'm pretty much known for playing him. But what would be really helpful is if you can give me some specific matchups you are having problems with. I'll try to glance across general ones that you will come across such as shotos and guile. shotos: I usually start the round off with either jab low rush or standing fierce. the standing fierce will hit them if they try to fireball and against ken you can often low rush before the fireball comes out. The thing to be aware of is dp will hit both standing fierce and low rush, while the better shotos will just do low strong at this point. The low strong will hit the rush if you it right away, but you can hit them while it's retracting so it's a total mental game at this point. Be aware of Ryu's who like to short hurricane kick over the jab low rush also. you can standing fierce the hurricane kick, so once again it's all a mind game. At this point your main goal is to keep rushing while looking for opportunities to either headbutt through fireballs or get close enough to go for throws. I personally prefer to either do a ton of Turn Around Punches (TAP) mixed up with some standing fierces and kick rushes if they jump or a ton of low jab rushes until they prove to me that they can stop it. Basically you wanna do 2 things - build up meter so you can have super (once you do the whole momentum of the match changes) or get close enough to throw so you can do post throw mixups like walk under low forward, low strong, jab low rush or kick rush (whiffed) then throw again or the other myriad of setups that follow (I personally prefer just low roundhouse against honda's/zangiefs but we aren't talking about them). Against guile, your goal is again the same (most matches involving balrog go in the form of - attack until you get meter, look for opening, super, next round) but you need to keep a few things in mind such as the fact that your low forward will beat his forward and that his backhand can get rather annoying too. What I like to do is stay outside of the backhand range and low strong it but the main time you are going to run into it (pun intended) is after he sonic booms and you headbutt through it. This is just a range issue and you're going to have to figure out when and when you can't headbutt. Also keep in mind that charged taps do a grip of damage, so a sorta okay strategy is to trade with the sonic boom in hopes of doing a lot of damage as well as building up meter. don't forget that you can standing fierce guile as he starts up the sonic boom. There are a lot more nuances, but i'm getting hungry. Playing bison? Just throw! haha. I'm serious, he's a total grappler in ST. there are just certain things not right about his throw in ST - such as blocked scissor kick into throw, that thing is a total 2 hit combo. meaty low short into throw is broken as well. just remember the power of cross up forward, standing short, low forward and jump strong, those moves are your friends. let me know if i didn't answer something and i'll explain it further. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com hey!rogger! can u post against chunli tips? Posted by BlackShinobi on 11:13:2001 07:40 PM: Animation frames are there any other ways to minimize the number of frames that you go through (like not blocking low before doing a standing attack) I really think I need to understand this more even though I don't know why. I was reading the other thread on the characters' rolls on CVS2, the total number of frames, how many were invincible and things like that and I couldn't help but think that this info might be more useful if I knew what to do with it. I mean is 3-5 frames of invinciblity even enough to do anything, that seems like a really small window of opportunity, even though I see people get hit out of rolls all the time Is it even worth learning? Posted by psx2000 on 11:13:2001 07:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi Animation frames are there any other ways to minimize the number of frames that you go through (like not blocking low before doing a standing attack) I really think I need to understand this more even though I don't know why. I was reading the other thread on the characters' rolls on CVS2, the total number of frames, how many were invincible and things like that and I couldn't help but think that this info might be more useful if I knew what to do with it. I mean is 3-5 frames of invinciblity even enough to do anything, that seems like a really small window of opportunity, even though I see people get hit out of rolls all the time Is it even worth learning? yes 3-5 u can definatley do stuff, if u want to understand a really effective way of how it was used check and search for post on the VALLE CC. Posted by BlackShinobi on 11:13:2001 07:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by psx2000 yes 3-5 u can definatley do stuff, if u want to understand a really effective way of how it was used check and search for post on the VALLE CC. OOPS I remember reading about that from an earlier thread and people trying to figure out if they work in A groove but I was meant to say uninvincible frames.(don't think thats a word) like if a roll has 25 frame and 22 are invincible there are only 3 frames when you can hit them but I don't really know what that means or how long that is. Posted by omni on 11:13:2001 10:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by sf2rb hey!rogger! can u post against chunli tips? no. You ruin every single ST thread and I'm done talking to you. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by omni on 11:13:2001 11:06 PM: quote: Originally posted by State of Nature XSF: who has the best rusdhown? Wolvie, Storm, Rogue, Cammy, or Magneto? What did rushdown look like in this game? Tiers? Wolvie's rushdown is okay - you basically just wanna get them close enough to the corner where you can go for his infinite. Storm is like the anti-thesis of rushdown. You run run run run run away with her all day long. Rogue isn't that good, although she has fun combos. Cammy is good, just gotta deal with the fact that her launcher sucks. Magneto is good, but not for the same broken reasons why he is good in mvc2. He just has really good throw setups. The best rushdown characters are people like cyke, chun, shotos, charlie, etc. XSF competitively is a pretty dumb game...often boils down to the all important low short or who can keep one away from the other - such as bison/juggernaut. I just think it has a really fun combo engine, so I just play it one player. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by State of Nature on 11:13:2001 11:52 PM: quote: Originally posted by omni The best rushdown characters are people like cyke, chun, shotos, charlie, etc. Interesting...so is triangle jumping less effective in this game? Posted by omni on 11:13:2001 11:55 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi Animation frames are there any other ways to minimize the number of frames that you go through (like not blocking low before doing a standing attack) I really think I need to understand this more even though I don't know why. I was reading the other thread on the characters' rolls on CVS2, the total number of frames, how many were invincible and things like that and I couldn't help but think that this info might be more useful if I knew what to do with it. I mean is 3-5 frames of invinciblity even enough to do anything, that seems like a really small window of opportunity, even though I see people get hit out of rolls all the time Is it even worth learning? Out of curiousity, do you play a lot of 3d games? Such as Tekken or VF? 3d players always get obsessed with frame information and think they need to know how fast Athena's jab is or what not. I have no idea how many frames Ryu's Low strong is nor how many frames it keeps you in hit stun versus block stun. I just sorta play the game and get a feel of how long things are and go from there. 3-5 frames is really big though. That's a big enough window where you can dp or super if you need to be. If all supers took that long, you would see hella supers being reversed. But what information can you really do with the fact that 23 out of your 28 frames are invincible? you just know that you can roll at the beginning but you are vulnerable at the end. All you need to know is that you can get away with bullshit at the beginning of the roll but you had best be out of the away by the end. And you can be thrown the entire time, so make sure you are aware of that. Knowing frames is important for stuff every now and then, but don't get obsessed with it. you would be better off spending that time just playing against people. I don't know if this really helps you or not. I see that you have an interest to learn and that is cool, don't think that i'm trying to dissuade you or anything. pm me or something and i'll give you my aim account and we can talk through there which is a lot easier to discuss SF IMO. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by Sho 2 on 11:14:2001 12:30 AM: Speaking of rolling, how the hell do you deal with fast rollers in CvS2. I mean people like Terry (especially Terry) can abuse/use their the roll as part of a reactive game (by reactive I mean roll, Rising Tackle if you attack or roll, throw/pressure if you block). I'm asking because Haohmaru's (I use all the new characters except Rock and Hibiki) worst enemy is someone the that can get inside easily, especially rollers. I also have a question on meaty with him and a few others but I won't swamp you. Domo Arigatoo. Posted by BlackShinobi on 11:14:2001 12:51 AM: No I don't play 3D games that much now its mostly Capcom for me I'm really set on getting good at CVS2 and it seems like really good players know this stuff already and like I said before figuring out the significance of 3 frames isn't something I would probably figure out myself during practice. I have another question How important is knowing past games? I keep hearing people mention Super Turbo stuff referrring to CVS2, and I was pretty good at older Street fighter games but not as good as the people who compete in the A3 and ST tournaments around here. How big of a disadvatage am I at. I'll be sure to PM or Email you when I think of more examples of how much I don't know. Thanks Posted by Apoc on 11:14:2001 01:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by omni Out of curiousity, do you play a lot of 3d games? Such as Tekken or VF? 3d players always get obsessed with frame information and think they need to know how fast Athena's jab is or what not. I have no idea how many frames Ryu's Low strong is nor how many frames it keeps you in hit stun versus block stun. I just sorta play the game and get a feel of how long things are and go from there. 3-5 frames is really big though. That's a big enough window where you can dp or super if you need to be. If all supers took that long, you would see hella supers being reversed. But what information can you really do with the fact that 23 out of your 28 frames are invincible? you just know that you can roll at the beginning but you are vulnerable at the end. All you need to know is that you can get away with bullshit at the beginning of the roll but you had best be out of the away by the end. And you can be thrown the entire time, so make sure you are aware of that. Knowing frames is important for stuff every now and then, but don't get obsessed with it. you would be better off spending that time just playing against people. I don't know if this really helps you or not. I see that you have an interest to learn and that is cool, don't think that i'm trying to dissuade you or anything. pm me or something and i'll give you my aim account and we can talk through there which is a lot easier to discuss SF IMO. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Not that I am actively participating in the Q&A system of this thread. I'm just throwing this out because it's simple and takes me a few seconds:P ANY time you are in a neutral state your move will come out much faster than had you been blocking. You go into blocking animation even though something does not touch you. This makes retalitory moves come out much slower. Believe it or not this is leet knowledge from old school that applies to all sf type games. This is a freebie. Respect the old school. It taught fundamentals that ppl simply don't notice because of all the added stuff now. The fundamentals are way too powerful to be ignored. So...for all of you who watch old school matches, guaranteed, you don't have a clue about what's really going on simply by watching. If you really want to learn how mindgames are developed and how slow characters become fast and a WHOLE MESS of other things...SF2:HF will definately show you. For example. Most ppl think that rolls kill fireballs. Old schoolers that understand how Ryu vs. Rog was played back in the day are gonna beat down rolls WITH the use of fireball tricks. It all comes full circle I generally don't share certain things in open forum because most ppl aren't interested in the REAL essential aspects of the competitive parts of SF. They want to hear "do this vs character x". Go back to school...the ol skool peace Apoc. Posted by sf2rb on 11:14:2001 01:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by omni no. You ruin every single ST thread and I'm done talking to you. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com i only love st..... Posted by Iceman on 11:14:2001 07:20 AM: Thanks Omni, that helped a lot. I have another ST question. How does Blanka compare to his other versions (HF, CvS and CvS2 are the 3 I'm most familiar with). He not generally ranked as highly in ST as in the other games, but I play him in everything else so what the hell. What matches does he do well in, and who's the trouble fights for him? Posted by Feebee on 11:14:2001 08:02 AM: Omni: In st, what is the difference between old dhalsim and new dhalsim and old sagat and new sagat? Also, who are the top players in the u.s. that use old dhalsim and new dhalsim? Or does anybody use old dhalsim? Mark Posted by sf2rb on 11:14:2001 08:44 AM: quote: Originally posted by Iceman Thanks Omni, that helped a lot. I have another ST question. How does Blanka compare to his other versions (HF, CvS and CvS2 are the 3 I'm most familiar with). He not generally ranked as highly in ST as in the other games, but I play him in everything else so what the hell. What matches does he do well in, and who's the trouble fights for him? i may help u......... i think blanka is best against zangief,ken,feilong,hawk and sagat,because this chars can't punish a blocked blanka ball. worst?easy.....blanka had no chance against rog both denfense and offense........honda and chunli should give a hard fight to blanka too. Posted by sf2rb on 11:14:2001 08:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by Feebee Omni: In st, what is the difference between old dhalsim and new dhalsim and old sagat and new sagat? Also, who are the top players in the u.s. that use old dhalsim and new dhalsim? Or does anybody use old dhalsim? Mark new sim all the way.............his controllable limbs are the best tool in close range fighting now.his sc is also one of the best in the game,it is almost invincible i think.dun play old sim,he suck. old sagat had more powerfull TU,faster fb.new had crossup j.forward,sc and soft-throw stuff.......i had no idea which is better,but most of u say the old own new........ Posted by Silver Paladin on 11:14:2001 08:54 AM: quote: Originally posted by State of Nature Interesting...so is triangle jumping less effective in this game? Yes. Hitting 3 buttons simultaneously is a bit harder than 2 buttons. In theory, you have a Storm infinite by triangle jumping them in the corner with lk, mk, hk. However, it's very difficult to do it consistantly because unless you're on the PSX and set a button to LP+MP+HP, it's very diffucult for you to consistantly pull off. It might just be me and my (lack of) skills, but I have a much easier time Triangle Jumping in MvC2. Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on 11:14:2001 02:24 PM: quote: Originally posted by Feebee Omni: In st, what is the difference between old dhalsim and new dhalsim and old sagat and new sagat? Also, who are the top players in the u.s. that use old dhalsim and new dhalsim? Or does anybody use old dhalsim? Mark 1. New Dhalsim has controllable limbs (hold back to use the close attacks). This is harder to get used to than Old Sim (whose far and close attacks work just like everyone else's), but in the end it's worth it. Old Sim has slightly better range and priority on the Yoga Noogie throw than New Sim. In the end, most people favor New Sim because of the controllable limbs, Yoga Flame super (one of the best in the game), and the fact that his throw range and priority are still better than most other characters'. 2. As said before, Old Sagat has a better Tiger Uppercut and faster fireballs than New Sagat. The fireballs, mainly, are why everyone uses Old Sagat. They come out really fast, travel really fast, and recover fast. Plus New Sagat's super isn't even that great anyways. 3. I've heard about someone called "Shirts" playing Old Dhalsim really well. But New Sim's more popular; Jason Cole won B5 with him and I've heard Mike Watson say he's the best character in the game. Josh the FunkDOC Posted by GYL on 11:15:2001 05:16 AM: yo omni,sups old freind...spreading the gospel huh?yo,you goin to nec2?just wondering...checkya later. Posted by sf2rb on 11:15:2001 05:20 AM: new.sim is the best???????????how him fight against akuma? Posted by soujiroten on 11:15:2001 06:29 AM: oi... Nobody beats Akuma, because of the air fireballs, and no dizzies. That's why he's banned from just about every ST tournament in existence. --SJ Posted by sf2rb on 11:15:2001 08:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by soujiroten oi... Nobody beats Akuma, because of the air fireballs, and no dizzies. That's why he's banned from just about every ST tournament in existence. --SJ no one beat aku coz he had invincible dp,cheap air fb and mad juggling hk............he own sagat for free Posted by Feebee on 11:15:2001 08:59 AM: quote: Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC 1. New Dhalsim has controllable limbs (hold back to use the close attacks). This is harder to get used to than Old Sim (whose far and close attacks work just like everyone else's), but in the end it's worth it. Old Sim has slightly better range and priority on the Yoga Noogie throw than New Sim. In the end, most people favor New Sim because of the controllable limbs, Yoga Flame super (one of the best in the game), and the fact that his throw range and priority are still better than most other characters'. 2. As said before, Old Sagat has a better Tiger Uppercut and faster fireballs than New Sagat. The fireballs, mainly, are why everyone uses Old Sagat. They come out really fast, travel really fast, and recover fast. Plus New Sagat's super isn't even that great anyways. 3. I've heard about someone called "Shirts" playing Old Dhalsim really well. But New Sim's more popular; Jason Cole won B5 with him and I've heard Mike Watson say he's the best character in the game. Josh the FunkDOC Who the heck is "Shirts?" Posted by sf2rb on 11:15:2001 09:09 AM: new sim own old.sim Posted by blt on 11:15:2001 03:49 PM: About XSF: Omni mentioned Bison, i thought i'd just add to that-- Bison is a freaking god in Xsf and his stand fwd is just "too good." You can own any shoto .. Old school knowledge: i'm not an expert so take this with a grain of salt. but from my experience..OG knowledge will help increase your skills in any game. Playing about 3 zillion games of hyper fighting (online) opened my eyes to so many mind games. at one point, i could never win a spiral vs spiral fight in mvc2. through pure chance, around that time i played HF nightly for about a week.. guile vs guile. suddenly i was virtually perfecting my usual comp's spiral wiht my own. imo,this wasn't coincidence. i wish people would still play HF online (hurry up and get sick of cvs2, trag). Posted by sf2rb on 11:16:2001 03:55 AM: hf and st are the best! Posted by Dasrik on 11:16:2001 10:42 AM: Looks like fagkalok killed yet another old-school thread... Posted by sf2rb on 11:16:2001 11:05 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Looks like fagkalok killed yet another old-school thread... u go out!u are the real lamer that disrupt my post!!!!i am only here to discuss st!!!u just go fuck All times are GMT. The time now is 10:54 PM. Show all 38 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.